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[Music]

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welcome to shattered reality with your

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hosts Kate Valentine and furs prepare to

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have your paradigm shifted in the truths

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questioned and now shattered reality

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well here we are again ferocious thank

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you for waiting I'm sorry I got held up

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but you know not Jersey traffic not to

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worry

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um miss Kate Valentine here we are again

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this is our 74th podcast oh yeah it is

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it is honestly well and to slate today

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is August 21st 2018 and we have just an

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extraordinarily interesting guest but

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before I introduce him I want to mention

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to you that one of our earlier guests I

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don't know if he was about number 5 or 7

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or around then if you recall was Ross

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dunseith from UVA mm-hm and he happened

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to be speaking to us a lot about a

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fellow named energy Edie

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Edwards mhm and I had the pleasure of

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meeting energy ed this past week and

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while I was sitting in audience where he

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was participating all of a sudden there

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was shattered reality on on the on the

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screen and he called a chatted reality

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radio show but still nice but he still

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he still put us up there on the screen

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and I had to introduce myself as to who

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I really was afterwards and he was he

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was tickled that I had come come to his

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demonstration as well so now that we've

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got that squared away do you have

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anything to start out with behold I'd

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also like to say thank you to him that's

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very nice yes yes he's an interesting

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gentleman he's an interesting man runs

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that electricity through his body

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there's no doubt about that the other

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stuff I cannot I cannot speak to but

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Tesla want to be well anyway yes today

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we have an extraordinarily interesting

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man joining us his name is dr. James

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McLennan he is a PhD sociology professor

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and licensed clinical social worker he

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has been the author of four books

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deviant science the case for

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parapsychology wondrous events

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foundations of religious belief wondrous

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healing shamanism human evolution and

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the origin of religion and the book

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we're going to talk about today the

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entity letters a sociologist on the

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trail of a supernatural mystery now

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originally from Maryland Jim has lived

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in Ecuador China Japan South Korea the

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Philippines Australia and North Carolina

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and travels extensively he I think he's

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now in Virginia so without further ado I

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would like to introduce dr. James

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McLennan hi thank you for being with us

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and welcome to the show yes well thank

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you very much welcome to shattered

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reality anyway I just was fascinated by

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the entity Letters book and I would

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start with saying that your statement

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towards the beginning of the book

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regarding suspending disbelief are

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really resonated with me but perhaps you

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would like to tell us two things that I

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think are necessary for anyone listening

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to this to understand could you explain

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what Surratt is and B what a mini lab of

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a dr. Cox was well Surratt stands for

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Society for research on foreign

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telekinesis

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and the mini lab is something that

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William had Edward Cox constructed to

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test the para for the paranormal

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phenomena that Surratt allegedly

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produced and that that mini lab at the

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mini lab it took various forms but one

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form was kind of like an inverted

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aquarium which was had metal bands which

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bolted it down onto us a wooden platform

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and in the platform where Mike received

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within the mini lab then it would switch

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on a camera so that was one of the ways

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of testing this phenomenon associated

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with surratt now you have a number of

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photographs in the book of the mini lab

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and I recommend that people you know

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refer to that in reading your book so

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the Surratt group maybe you could go

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into a little bit more depth as to where

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they were who they were at the time

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frame that sort of thing well the whole

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thing started off in 1961 it was founded

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by a very famous poet John G my heart

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and and he was a he was the poet

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laureate of the plains states and also

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the author of a best-selling book Black

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Elk speaks is he was very familiar with

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Lakota Sioux shamanism and he befriended

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this Native American Black Elk and this

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demonstration or indication of of Native

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American culture so in 1961 he was

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pretty old and he was a professor at the

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University of Missouri and he gathered

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together college students there at the

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college and the idea was to try to

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recreate spirituous phenomena that they

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were going to engage in table tipping

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they they would gather together put

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their hands on the table and in spirit

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in the spiritualist era the table would

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move around and they would hear raps

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coming out of the floor and there's a

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way of communicating with the spirits so

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in 61 they stay at

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to this in october and by late December

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and early January they started getting

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raps coming out of the floor and the and

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the table seemed to be moving and then

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the phenomena kept increasing they found

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that the raps

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could be communicated with one rap

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equals yes - rappy raps equals no and

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then later on they did they began to use

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kind of a spiritualist code one rapping

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will say - raps p3 up C for D so the

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reps were able to spell out words and

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can provide messages then as time passed

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the table the table boom became more

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vigorous and the table would get up in

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the air and they take their hands away

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from it and that would levitate up in

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the air so they would they were they

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were pretty cautious and they wanted to

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verify the authenticity of the phenomena

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so Neihardt had them Cape record this

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each session and they also photographed

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a table whenever it was levitating and

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so this happened in in the nineteen or

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1960s but there was a strong reaction

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from the authorities I guess you might

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say like for example the college of

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authorities and they were began

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investigating this and they expelled

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some of the students one student lost

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her her visa another student lost his

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month funding so he couldn't go to

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college and and so they and people were

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there the question is maybe this is

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demonic and we can't do this you know

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here in Missouri it's just not

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acceptable so they they kind of became

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less open and kind of went underground

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and they continued reading but they it

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wasn't they were careful who they

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invited and they continued meeting and

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so when I became involved in the case in

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1981 they had been meeting for 20 years

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and it was a it was a very strange thing

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and indeed it was go ahead what do you

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think strange what do you mean I mean

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obviously table tipping to the average

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person seemed strange but not to you I

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mean what did you find strange about

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well it does seem strange to me I hadn't

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I had become curious about paranormal

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phenomena and I had started reading the

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pair of psychological literature and

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during that era than 1980s

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parapsychologists felt that they could

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demonstrate extrasensory perception

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under controlled conditions but

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psychokinesis is something that most

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people don't believe in it's it's kind

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of like hauntings and poltergeists and

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things like that why I decided I'd do my

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PhD dissertation on parapsychologist as

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a form of deviant science to see how was

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it that pair of psychologists could

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continue for year after year and yet

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never become accepted how could it

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continue going on for such a long period

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of time and not become acceptable

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science so I went around the country I

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interviewed all the pair of

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psychologists in the US and most of them

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in Europe and I worked on my

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dissertation and the pair of

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psychologists began contacting me and

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suggesting that I investigate haunting

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cases which were in Maryland where I was

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and so I went out and I interviewed

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people and I was amazed that sure enough

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people have these kinds of experiences

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but that and then when I when I began

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attending the parapsychological meetings

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that's when I read into ed Cox and he

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had just completed a film his filming of

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this mini lab of the phenomena and he

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showed the mini lab film at the

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conference and I'm telling you it really

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looks bizarre it looks it looks stupid I

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look silly looks silly it looks like it

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it looks like stop action photography

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the objects will be in one place and

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then the next frame there jump somewhere

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else and they go jumping through the

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front of the glass the mini lab front of

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the mini lab and things start levitating

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floating up in the

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and looks like I mean if you are a

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magician you could create that you know

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it looks like it could be done by fraud

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without much effort except that there

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were some scenes which were very bizarre

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like a paper could burst into flames

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spontaneously and though it looks like

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there's wind blowing things around but

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some things are going one way or other

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should going out of the way so it it

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would require a certain level of

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expertise to fabricate it at more than

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more than a normal person would have but

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it was it seemed like it could be

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fabricated

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anyway Cox invited me to to just see

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what was going on out there in Missouri

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and in 1981 I went out there and that's

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what that was the beginning of my

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problem I guess you might say because

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the there were rats coming out of the

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floor they could they could the wraps

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came out on the floor and that you could

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have a conversation with them they would

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make a wrapping something like say you

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say to the refs hi when they just start

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wrapping baby h-hi oh hi how do they say

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hi back no and you could have a

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conversation you could ask them a

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question they would answer it and then

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they would ask you questions so it so as

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if you're communicating with something

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you're not sure what but something and

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then they did the table tipping

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phenomena you put your hands on the

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table and and it would move it wouldn't

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have like a vibration like there's

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electricity and or something it would

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seem impossible that a human could do it

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could produce that effect but but maybe

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possible you know like maybe as possibly

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it I mean I couldn't you couldn't be it

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seems implausible but perhaps you know

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and and then one event after another

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would occur everything becomes more and

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more implausible it becomes becomes more

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and more difficult but never it always

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seemed like there was a possibility and

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and it seemed the camera like for

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example I interviewed the different

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strapped members we're talking about Oh

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dozens of people maybe thirty Tom

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was dr. Nye Hart's research assistant he

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was a graduate assistant and dr. Nahar

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died in 1970s and so Richard the other

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sucks right numbers they just continued

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reading and they continued getting this

274
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table movements and rats and table

275
00:13:43,660 --> 00:13:41,720
levitations and poltergeist phenomena

276
00:13:48,790 --> 00:13:43,670
and sometimes the whole room would shake

277
00:13:51,130 --> 00:13:48,800
like an earthquake so that's the kind of

278
00:13:52,870 --> 00:13:51,140
thing I'm confronting with except that

279
00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:52,880
when you they would show me their

280
00:13:57,610 --> 00:13:55,330
scrapbooks they all had scrapbooks

281
00:13:59,020 --> 00:13:57,620
because apparently for the last twenty

282
00:14:00,370 --> 00:13:59,030
years they had beginning a table to

283
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:00,380
levitate then they grabbed their camera

284
00:14:04,750 --> 00:14:02,210
and take pictures of it they put it in

285
00:14:06,940 --> 00:14:04,760
the scrapbook but but they would also

286
00:14:08,350 --> 00:14:06,950
put pictures of it when it wasn't quite

287
00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:08,360
some people would have their hands on it

288
00:14:11,590 --> 00:14:09,920
and it looked like people had their

289
00:14:13,150 --> 00:14:11,600
thumbs underneath the top of the table

290
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:13,160
like that maybe they were lifting it you

291
00:14:17,890 --> 00:14:16,010
know and so they said well you know

292
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:17,900
that's just the way they the spirits

293
00:14:22,380 --> 00:14:19,250
they want to make you think it's

294
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:22,390
fraudulent no are you familiar by chance

295
00:14:31,180 --> 00:14:28,970
with the practice of having a person lie

296
00:14:36,250 --> 00:14:31,190
down on a table or sit in a lounge chair

297
00:14:39,370 --> 00:14:36,260
and have six people or three on each

298
00:14:41,230 --> 00:14:39,380
side of the person and just putting the

299
00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:41,240
first two fingers of the right hand

300
00:14:50,350 --> 00:14:47,360
underneath alternately the armpits the

301
00:14:53,620 --> 00:14:50,360
knees and then somewhere Midway and that

302
00:14:55,660 --> 00:14:53,630
the person levitates yes I'm familiar

303
00:14:57,250 --> 00:14:55,670
with that a lot of people have done that

304
00:15:00,400 --> 00:14:57,260
haven't they a lot of people have tried

305
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:00,410
that experiment and it seems it seems

306
00:15:06,010 --> 00:15:03,650
like something's going on doesn't it it

307
00:15:09,250 --> 00:15:06,020
certainly does I I did it when I was a

308
00:15:13,630 --> 00:15:09,260
teenager and it was just amazing because

309
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:13,640
it felt like no weight on my fingers at

310
00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:15,890
all and I'm a small woman I've never

311
00:15:22,450 --> 00:15:19,730
been a strong woman and so given all of

312
00:15:25,660 --> 00:15:22,460
that it was not through the mighty use

313
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:25,670
of my fingers or the mighty use of the

314
00:15:31,060 --> 00:15:28,130
fingers of the other girls around the

315
00:15:32,950 --> 00:15:31,070
the person being lifted and we tried the

316
00:15:35,590 --> 00:15:32,960
the heaviest person

317
00:15:37,570 --> 00:15:35,600
amongst us to lift after we had done it

318
00:15:41,710 --> 00:15:37,580
you know several times in it it was

319
00:15:45,190 --> 00:15:41,720
really no problem to to lift the people

320
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:45,200
up and they seemed weightless what would

321
00:15:50,620 --> 00:15:48,290
you have a have a thought on that well

322
00:15:53,380 --> 00:15:50,630
there's theories which explain this type

323
00:15:55,540 --> 00:15:53,390
of thing for example there's a

324
00:15:59,980 --> 00:15:55,550
parapsychologist kenneth bachelor door

325
00:16:02,140 --> 00:15:59,990
who he argued that the reason why psy

326
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:02,150
doesn't work very often or very

327
00:16:06,580 --> 00:16:03,890
effectively is because people have an

328
00:16:08,170 --> 00:16:06,590
inherent fear of psy how here they're

329
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:08,180
afraid of incurring and they're afraid

330
00:16:13,630 --> 00:16:10,970
that they'll that they will be held

331
00:16:15,940 --> 00:16:13,640
responsible for it so he thinks that's

332
00:16:18,460 --> 00:16:15,950
that's innate in humans that we that we

333
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:18,470
fought the phenomena because of our own

334
00:16:24,730 --> 00:16:22,010
inner fears and he argues that artifacts

335
00:16:27,490 --> 00:16:24,740
overcome these obstacles so when you

336
00:16:28,810 --> 00:16:27,500
lift up the person it could be your

337
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:28,820
muscles that you just don't realize that

338
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:31,970
you see and so but then once the person

339
00:16:39,130 --> 00:16:36,410
gets up people see is happening and that

340
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:39,140
results in belief and then it allows the

341
00:16:43,750 --> 00:16:42,050
authentic PK to occur so that could

342
00:16:46,030 --> 00:16:43,760
that's a theory which could explain the

343
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:46,040
Surat phenomenon now there's it could be

344
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:47,930
people are pushing the table around in

345
00:16:53,140 --> 00:16:52,130
the darkness then it starts moving they

346
00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:53,150
don't realize that they're actually

347
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:54,560
doing it but then that helps them

348
00:16:59,820 --> 00:16:56,810
overcome their fear so then that helps

349
00:17:02,410 --> 00:16:59,830
the table to rise up and then authentic

350
00:17:05,350 --> 00:17:02,420
phenomenon as possible to occur and they

351
00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:05,360
take pictures of it so this explains how

352
00:17:11,770 --> 00:17:07,910
this thing becomes possible is that it's

353
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:11,780
a theory and it helps us you know we can

354
00:17:16,540 --> 00:17:13,610
work with that create hypotheses from

355
00:17:19,270 --> 00:17:16,550
that well that brings up something else

356
00:17:24,190 --> 00:17:19,280
that came into my mind as I was reading

357
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:24,200
your book and that is that I was

358
00:17:30,370 --> 00:17:27,410
surprised that you exhibited no fear

359
00:17:35,980 --> 00:17:30,380
about bringing some of these things into

360
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:35,990
your home or sleeping next to the the

361
00:17:45,340 --> 00:17:40,850
mini lab in the basement of of the Tom

362
00:17:46,810 --> 00:17:45,350
and Elaine because it would seem to me

363
00:17:50,049 --> 00:17:46,820
that before you

364
00:17:54,269 --> 00:17:50,059
have established what these entities are

365
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:54,279
are they really the ghosts of departed

366
00:17:59,799 --> 00:17:56,210
individuals the spirits of departed

367
00:18:03,070 --> 00:17:59,809
individuals are they is it somebody's

368
00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:03,080
super sigh as it's called or is it some

369
00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:06,110
discarnate entity that was never really

370
00:18:11,940 --> 00:18:08,960
alive and we we never find that out for

371
00:18:15,580 --> 00:18:11,950
sure in life and neither did you I guess

372
00:18:18,669 --> 00:18:15,590
well I had done a number of haunting

373
00:18:20,139 --> 00:18:18,679
investigations previous to go out and

374
00:18:22,419 --> 00:18:20,149
talking with the sarasu and I had

375
00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:22,429
encountered all manner of different

376
00:18:30,509 --> 00:18:26,240
ghostly things but they never seemed to

377
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:30,519
be able to verify themselves completely

378
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:35,120
and even demonic some people hadn't even

379
00:18:41,740 --> 00:18:38,210
demonic things you know a malevolent

380
00:18:45,909 --> 00:18:41,750
spirits but you know I was a Vietnam

381
00:18:48,909 --> 00:18:45,919
veteran and I had I guess I fallen off

382
00:18:51,369 --> 00:18:48,919
the edge you know I think I think I've

383
00:18:53,889 --> 00:18:51,379
pretty much over I think I'm pretty much

384
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:53,899
over the hill with regard to about being

385
00:18:58,450 --> 00:18:55,850
afraid I think I've been about as

386
00:19:00,190 --> 00:18:58,460
straight as the person can get and it

387
00:19:01,570 --> 00:19:00,200
seemed to me I know I've had a lot of

388
00:19:04,330 --> 00:19:01,580
discussions with a lot of different

389
00:19:06,909 --> 00:19:04,340
people and some of my Surratt friends

390
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:06,919
have asked well this is could this

391
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:09,710
actually be demonic and I said well if

392
00:19:13,269 --> 00:19:11,330
you think if that were the devil we'd

393
00:19:17,110 --> 00:19:13,279
have a little more ability to verify

394
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:17,120
himself you know this this it's kind of

395
00:19:20,499 --> 00:19:19,370
like putting salt on a bird's tail or

396
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:20,509
something

397
00:19:26,019 --> 00:19:23,690
spirits kind of lose in the face of

398
00:19:29,049 --> 00:19:26,029
skepticism date they they seem to lose

399
00:19:31,149 --> 00:19:29,059
their power uh-huh got that

400
00:19:33,970 --> 00:19:31,159
and you're right I guess I perhaps I

401
00:19:37,830 --> 00:19:33,980
should have perhaps I should have been

402
00:19:40,659 --> 00:19:37,840
more worried and my my lack of fear

403
00:19:42,129 --> 00:19:40,669
destroyed my academic career knows I

404
00:19:44,129 --> 00:19:42,139
have it wasn't able to teach her to

405
00:19:46,810 --> 00:19:44,139
Harvard or Yale or any important place

406
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:46,820
so certainly I perhaps I should have

407
00:19:51,159 --> 00:19:49,129
been more afraid and I recognized that

408
00:19:52,899 --> 00:19:51,169
the thing I was the thing that I was

409
00:19:57,159 --> 00:19:52,909
worried about was my reputation and

410
00:19:59,500 --> 00:19:57,169
losing credibility that bacchus that was

411
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:59,510
the thing which I was most cost the most

412
00:20:03,310 --> 00:20:00,320
anxiety

413
00:20:10,029 --> 00:20:03,320
for me I didn't feel that the phenomena

414
00:20:12,539 --> 00:20:10,039
could harm me I don't I guess you know I

415
00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:12,549
guess I have I guess I have a kind of a

416
00:20:18,909 --> 00:20:14,960
religious foundation or a Christian

417
00:20:22,899 --> 00:20:18,919
foundation and I don't think that the

418
00:20:25,180 --> 00:20:22,909
devil can hurt me you know well no I

419
00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:25,190
agree with hell now but I think the fear

420
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:27,230
is not so much us but the fear of the

421
00:20:32,019 --> 00:20:29,600
people who are in established places

422
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:32,029
because anything you're investigating

423
00:20:40,269 --> 00:20:35,450
you know you sort of have that in common

424
00:20:46,779 --> 00:20:42,970
people really are afraid of the

425
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:46,789
disruption you know the order that

426
00:20:51,690 --> 00:20:49,370
they've already created and you know

427
00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:51,700
you're a direct threat to that of course

428
00:21:01,360 --> 00:20:57,710
well I've talked about saying prayers

429
00:21:08,830 --> 00:21:01,370
and burning candles or they do rituals

430
00:21:11,919 --> 00:21:08,840
and I I wanted the phenomenon to occur I

431
00:21:13,799 --> 00:21:11,929
was just very very curious yeah I was

432
00:21:15,970 --> 00:21:13,809
very curious and I wanted to see it and

433
00:21:17,710 --> 00:21:15,980
that's the bottom I guess that's the

434
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:17,720
bottom line that was so that was my main

435
00:21:22,539 --> 00:21:19,690
motivation I think that was curiosity

436
00:21:24,430 --> 00:21:22,549
yeah are you capable of creating these

437
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:24,440
events yourself or were you just a

438
00:21:31,330 --> 00:21:29,330
witness I'm sorry you're the audio it's

439
00:21:33,249 --> 00:21:31,340
not perfectly clear okay yeah it sounds

440
00:21:37,619 --> 00:21:33,259
was a Laden is I was just saying are you

441
00:21:39,730 --> 00:21:37,629
uh did you were you able to create these

442
00:21:44,230 --> 00:21:39,740
events yourself or where you were

443
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:44,240
witness to them oh I don't know thus

444
00:21:49,749 --> 00:21:46,970
arrests seemed like such regular normal

445
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:49,759
people and when I they they're very

446
00:21:54,100 --> 00:21:52,730
regular normal people Tom Richards and

447
00:21:57,070 --> 00:21:54,110
his wife go to the Methodist Church

448
00:21:59,590 --> 00:21:57,080
across the street the other young people

449
00:22:02,139 --> 00:21:59,600
were like me some more graduate students

450
00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:02,149
some more students the people were just

451
00:22:08,169 --> 00:22:06,049
so absolutely normal that the the

452
00:22:12,369 --> 00:22:08,179
thought that this could be something

453
00:22:14,140 --> 00:22:12,379
malevolent didn't cross my my mind now

454
00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:14,150
the idea is maybe

455
00:22:17,890 --> 00:22:15,980
we're creating the the phenomenon

456
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:17,900
ourselves in fact that seemed to be a

457
00:22:22,570 --> 00:22:19,850
very logical hypothesis it seemed that

458
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:22,580
that was happening the people present

459
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:25,010
were affecting the phenomena the people

460
00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:27,530
who were there we were shaping that

461
00:22:32,230 --> 00:22:29,840
seemed to me to my mind what was going

462
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:32,240
on and I think my skepticism was

463
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:35,360
thwarted the phenomena well that's what

464
00:22:38,620 --> 00:22:37,310
happened with the Philipp experiments no

465
00:22:41,860 --> 00:22:38,630
yes

466
00:22:46,260 --> 00:22:41,870
yeah that that that just to recap a

467
00:22:50,410 --> 00:22:46,270
group of interested individuals fairly

468
00:22:53,860 --> 00:22:50,420
intellectual decided to create in their

469
00:22:56,980 --> 00:22:53,870
mind this character from the past called

470
00:22:59,800 --> 00:22:56,990
Philip and they gave him a complete

471
00:23:04,360 --> 00:22:59,810
identity and then he seemed to continue

472
00:23:06,370 --> 00:23:04,370
to exist after they went away I mean

473
00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:06,380
that's a very encapsulated and perhaps

474
00:23:11,470 --> 00:23:08,000
you want to speak to that a little bit

475
00:23:13,450 --> 00:23:11,480
well but they found that that entity was

476
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:13,460
unable to come up with information that

477
00:23:19,990 --> 00:23:18,170
was not inside their minds this the

478
00:23:23,140 --> 00:23:20,000
phenomena the surratt phenomena wasn't

479
00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:23,150
controlled by the belief by that belief

480
00:23:29,250 --> 00:23:27,110
the as founded by JG Neihardt the idea

481
00:23:32,110 --> 00:23:29,260
was that the syrettes would allow the

482
00:23:35,470 --> 00:23:32,120
phenomenon to be however it was and that

483
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:35,480
then by observing it we could increase

484
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:37,970
our scientific understanding of it so

485
00:23:42,220 --> 00:23:40,490
the threats were open to the idea that

486
00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:42,230
they could be spirits and many Scots

487
00:23:46,630 --> 00:23:44,480
believe that it was spirits others

488
00:23:48,580 --> 00:23:46,640
thought it was their mind and they were

489
00:23:50,650 --> 00:23:48,590
open to the idea that of it coming

490
00:23:52,810 --> 00:23:50,660
through the mind I think Tom Richards

491
00:23:55,270 --> 00:23:52,820
was willing just to allow it he was

492
00:23:57,940 --> 00:23:55,280
going to his feeling was that we just

493
00:24:01,090 --> 00:23:57,950
accept it the way that it was and the

494
00:24:05,350 --> 00:24:01,100
way that it was was very had very high

495
00:24:07,810 --> 00:24:05,360
level of trickster qualities it was a it

496
00:24:11,230 --> 00:24:07,820
was like there's something non-human

497
00:24:12,180 --> 00:24:11,240
about it or something very strange sense

498
00:24:16,780 --> 00:24:12,190
of humor

499
00:24:19,780 --> 00:24:16,790
a almost a cheating characteristic a

500
00:24:23,500 --> 00:24:19,790
hiding characteristic it was hiding from

501
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:23,510
verification so I think you know you've

502
00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:25,730
had George Hansen on your program Jordan

503
00:24:27,730 --> 00:24:27,110
I think that's AB where George got the

504
00:24:29,919 --> 00:24:27,740
idea

505
00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:29,929
his encounter with the Surat phenomena

506
00:24:34,180 --> 00:24:32,390
it was very very clear that we were

507
00:24:37,380 --> 00:24:34,190
dealing with it with kind of a trickster

508
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:37,390
mm-hmm he dedication

509
00:24:45,610 --> 00:24:41,690
Adcox I believe yeah and Cox himself was

510
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:45,620
a was a quirky fellow he had done a lot

511
00:24:51,010 --> 00:24:48,290
of research a previous field research

512
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:51,020
and and now I have come to learn in my

513
00:24:56,860 --> 00:24:54,170
over the years the more person exposes

514
00:25:00,370 --> 00:24:56,870
themselves the higher their level of

515
00:25:01,990 --> 00:25:00,380
belief becomes and so he he was very he

516
00:25:03,790 --> 00:25:02,000
had a high level of certainty that there

517
00:25:06,070 --> 00:25:03,800
was the phenomenon is quite possible and

518
00:25:08,410 --> 00:25:06,080
I think that facilitated it he

519
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:08,420
facilitated the phenomena occurring

520
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:11,570
because he accepted it he didn't know

521
00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:18,050
what it was but he accepted it and what

522
00:25:24,190 --> 00:25:20,960
the way you describe ed Cox's is it's

523
00:25:28,030 --> 00:25:24,200
really annoying because he was truly the

524
00:25:30,330 --> 00:25:28,040
attic scientist and before all these

525
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:30,340
sort of commercial scientific

526
00:25:35,590 --> 00:25:33,410
investigations got started that was the

527
00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:35,600
early science and I mean the fact that

528
00:25:43,630 --> 00:25:41,360
they were so I don't know smug about him

529
00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:43,640
and laughing about him and I mean the

530
00:25:49,510 --> 00:25:45,110
man was actually doing very good work

531
00:25:52,540 --> 00:25:49,520
with a very limited budget and yeah it

532
00:25:55,030 --> 00:25:52,550
was very the the attitude that he came

533
00:25:56,950 --> 00:25:55,040
up against was I I mean I wasn't annoy

534
00:25:59,110 --> 00:25:56,960
it was Cox I don't even know him but the

535
00:26:00,450 --> 00:25:59,120
attitude I'm sort of familiar with and

536
00:26:03,370 --> 00:26:00,460
it's extremely annoying

537
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:03,380
the attitude of other scientists and and

538
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:06,650
we only have to look at the dr. john

539
00:26:12,610 --> 00:26:10,130
mack the late dr. john mack who was it

540
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:12,620
opposed surprise winner I believe and a

541
00:26:18,370 --> 00:26:15,290
Harvard tenured professor and they

542
00:26:20,260 --> 00:26:18,380
really really did badly by hand boy they

543
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:20,270
try to rip him up to shreds but he

544
00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:22,610
fought back you do not threaten the

545
00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:25,910
orthodoxy no science advances one

546
00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:32,000
funeral at a time hope it's not mine so

547
00:26:36,970 --> 00:26:35,360
onward and upward I I know that I had

548
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:36,980
mentioned to you and I am going to

549
00:26:41,020 --> 00:26:39,679
mention just a single interesting

550
00:26:44,550 --> 00:26:41,030
corollary from my

551
00:26:50,140 --> 00:26:44,560
own life when I was a teenager I found

552
00:26:54,730 --> 00:26:50,150
the book Black Elk speaks by John

553
00:26:56,740 --> 00:26:54,740
Neihardt on my bookshelf it was a used

554
00:26:58,630 --> 00:26:56,750
book clearly used book it might have

555
00:27:02,560 --> 00:26:58,640
even had a piece of tape on it I'm not

556
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:02,570
sure and I was busy trying to graduate

557
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:04,610
from high school and first starting

558
00:27:11,970 --> 00:27:08,210
college and it was before I had taken

559
00:27:14,110 --> 00:27:11,980
any anthropology classes so I did not

560
00:27:16,300 --> 00:27:14,120
attempt to read it I was kind of

561
00:27:17,710 --> 00:27:16,310
inundated with the idea of getting out

562
00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:17,720
of high school and getting into college

563
00:27:22,990 --> 00:27:20,510
and doing what was necessary for that so

564
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:23,000
my intellectual curiosity did not allow

565
00:27:28,420 --> 00:27:25,760
me to to look much at it but I did it

566
00:27:30,430 --> 00:27:28,430
did puzzle me it puzzled me at the time

567
00:27:34,750 --> 00:27:30,440
because I don't remember having

568
00:27:36,820 --> 00:27:34,760
purchased the book and my father who was

569
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:36,830
interested in Native Americans to some

570
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:39,290
extent he could have put it there but he

571
00:27:44,230 --> 00:27:41,810
never mentioned it and I don't believe I

572
00:27:46,180 --> 00:27:44,240
ever asked him and he didn't just put

573
00:27:48,460 --> 00:27:46,190
most things on my bookshelf he would if

574
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:48,470
he had purchased a book or something and

575
00:27:54,220 --> 00:27:50,330
was giving it to me he would say here it

576
00:27:57,340 --> 00:27:54,230
is you know and then later on it

577
00:28:00,790 --> 00:27:57,350
appeared again in an apartment that I

578
00:28:03,790 --> 00:28:00,800
lived on in on 12th Street in Manhattan

579
00:28:06,130 --> 00:28:03,800
and I still have some access to that

580
00:28:07,750 --> 00:28:06,140
apartment and I have been meaning to try

581
00:28:10,030 --> 00:28:07,760
to look for it because I don't believe I

582
00:28:12,190 --> 00:28:10,040
transported it between the two places

583
00:28:14,770 --> 00:28:12,200
because it wasn't really quote-unquote

584
00:28:17,260 --> 00:28:14,780
my book so I'm going to continue to look

585
00:28:20,890 --> 00:28:17,270
for it but I was I found that to be

586
00:28:24,370 --> 00:28:20,900
passing strange given the the stories in

587
00:28:28,110 --> 00:28:24,380
your book about entity letters and the

588
00:28:30,850 --> 00:28:28,120
fact that John Neihart had signed

589
00:28:32,890 --> 00:28:30,860
posthumously had signed some of the

590
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:32,900
books that were out there do you want to

591
00:28:40,090 --> 00:28:35,690
speak to that a little bit yes my heart

592
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:40,100
was a very interesting fellow a very if

593
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:42,410
you have time is it might be fun to look

594
00:28:46,510 --> 00:28:44,210
up some of his poems they're there

595
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:46,520
they're powerful poems about the Old

596
00:28:54,049 --> 00:28:49,730
West most of them and Locke elk was also

597
00:28:57,499 --> 00:28:54,059
a very charismatic powerful medicine man

598
00:28:59,840 --> 00:28:57,509
capable of summoning rain when when when

599
00:29:03,080 --> 00:28:59,850
the when the his people needed rain for

600
00:29:04,879 --> 00:29:03,090
example and Raquel had been exposed to

601
00:29:07,070 --> 00:29:04,889
these things by hanging out with

602
00:29:08,570 --> 00:29:07,080
blackout I mean excuse me now hard I've

603
00:29:10,909 --> 00:29:08,580
been exposed to this by hanging out with

604
00:29:13,489 --> 00:29:10,919
blackout and I think what happened was

605
00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:13,499
Tom Richards in the early syrettes they

606
00:29:17,899 --> 00:29:15,840
were exposed to it and that that allowed

607
00:29:19,639 --> 00:29:17,909
them to do what they're doing and notice

608
00:29:21,979 --> 00:29:19,649
what's what's they saw it and

609
00:29:23,930 --> 00:29:21,989
experienced it then they could carry on

610
00:29:26,810 --> 00:29:23,940
and the phenomena could go on for a year

611
00:29:28,070 --> 00:29:26,820
after year so they were contacting and

612
00:29:31,009 --> 00:29:28,080
they were interacting with Black Elk

613
00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:31,019
they also interacted with John King a

614
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:34,220
16th century Buccaneer and spiritualists

615
00:29:42,859 --> 00:29:39,690
era entity and patience worth she's a

616
00:29:45,950 --> 00:29:42,869
famous spirit from from st. Louis and

617
00:29:48,349 --> 00:29:45,960
after my heart died my heart himself

618
00:29:51,109 --> 00:29:48,359
would come through and make raps and

619
00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:51,119
communicate with people and so in that

620
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:54,960
when I first again in 1981 in 1982 it

621
00:29:59,570 --> 00:29:57,450
seemed I had experience with haunting

622
00:30:02,749 --> 00:29:59,580
cases and I had I had the theory that

623
00:30:05,239 --> 00:30:02,759
you should allow the spirits to express

624
00:30:07,580 --> 00:30:05,249
themselves you should allow the people

625
00:30:11,239 --> 00:30:07,590
we should allow the people to manifest

626
00:30:13,339 --> 00:30:11,249
their their creativity that that in some

627
00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:13,349
cases this is kind of a some type of

628
00:30:19,159 --> 00:30:17,129
blockage going on and it's it's good for

629
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:19,169
people to say what they really think so

630
00:30:23,629 --> 00:30:21,090
I left paper out for them to write on

631
00:30:26,479 --> 00:30:23,639
and they they they wrote letters and

632
00:30:31,089 --> 00:30:26,489
left messages and then they were able to

633
00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:31,099
send things to the mail and so Neihart

634
00:30:37,549 --> 00:30:34,049
was was writing letters to me and

635
00:30:38,450 --> 00:30:37,559
signing his name and I thought well he

636
00:30:42,379 --> 00:30:38,460
amazing

637
00:30:44,839 --> 00:30:42,389
yeah recruiting new poems and and then

638
00:30:47,210 --> 00:30:44,849
he was signed books from other Surratt

639
00:30:49,759 --> 00:30:47,220
members that that had been published

640
00:30:52,940 --> 00:30:49,769
after his death so I collected the

641
00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:52,950
signature okay and so I was in I was

642
00:30:56,930 --> 00:30:55,049
caught in this rat thing and and of

643
00:30:59,889 --> 00:30:56,940
course the major hypothesis is that the

644
00:31:02,029 --> 00:30:59,899
people are engaging in fraud and that we

645
00:31:04,220 --> 00:31:02,039
parapsychologists are supposed to verify

646
00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:04,230
the phenomenon well I thought well we'll

647
00:31:09,470 --> 00:31:07,200
take the signatures to a handwriting

648
00:31:12,230 --> 00:31:09,480
Excursion see whether they're authentic

649
00:31:15,019 --> 00:31:12,240
or not so I live in the Washington to

650
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:15,029
here seriously I went down to the FBI

651
00:31:21,310 --> 00:31:17,490
and they sent me to this handwriting

652
00:31:24,289 --> 00:31:21,320
expert that they used and he looked at

653
00:31:27,919 --> 00:31:24,299
him with the signatures that I had and

654
00:31:29,779 --> 00:31:27,929
he asked me to bring him authentic

655
00:31:31,970 --> 00:31:29,789
signatures from different eras in

656
00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:31,980
Nayar's life which turned out not to be

657
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:34,110
too difficult because it was a very

658
00:31:38,899 --> 00:31:35,970
public person that had had written

659
00:31:40,759 --> 00:31:38,909
extensively on his life so I brought him

660
00:31:43,159 --> 00:31:40,769
the signatures from every decade of my

661
00:31:45,649 --> 00:31:43,169
heart's life and he wrote this report up

662
00:31:47,509 --> 00:31:45,659
and said that one of my signatures was

663
00:31:50,539 --> 00:31:47,519
obvious he was certain that it was a

664
00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:50,549
fraud but that the two other signatures

665
00:31:56,750 --> 00:31:54,720
had been had been done so skillfully

666
00:31:59,120 --> 00:31:56,760
they could not pass judgment as to

667
00:32:01,580 --> 00:31:59,130
whether it was fraudulent or not but if

668
00:32:03,769 --> 00:32:01,590
it was fraudulent whoever had done it

669
00:32:08,690 --> 00:32:03,779
whoever had created his signature was

670
00:32:10,820 --> 00:32:08,700
very very skillful forger so that just

671
00:32:14,210 --> 00:32:10,830
adds to the repertoire of behavior that

672
00:32:16,460 --> 00:32:14,220
were attributing so fraudulent then I

673
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:16,470
guess Tom and his wife Elaine Richards

674
00:32:21,019 --> 00:32:18,570
or some of the other strats i guess they

675
00:32:22,639 --> 00:32:21,029
are also expert forgers as well as

676
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:22,649
magicians right yeah

677
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:24,210
not only are they thought to be

678
00:32:28,850 --> 00:32:26,730
incredible musician magicians better

679
00:32:31,549 --> 00:32:28,860
than any professional in existence but

680
00:32:34,070 --> 00:32:31,559
they're also able to do this forgery

681
00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:34,080
kind of thing I was a little unclear

682
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:37,110
where was the paper at this time I mean

683
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:39,090
you left on top of your desk and in the

684
00:32:46,009 --> 00:32:41,250
morning it was there or the writing was

685
00:32:48,649 --> 00:32:46,019
there or was mail some of it didn't have

686
00:32:51,019 --> 00:32:48,659
a return yes yes I mean not to be

687
00:32:56,810 --> 00:32:51,029
ridiculous but uh but we're ticket to

688
00:32:58,220 --> 00:32:56,820
stamp from spirits yeah

689
00:33:00,529 --> 00:32:58,230
people would provide them with

690
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:00,539
self-addressed stamped envelopes okay

691
00:33:05,990 --> 00:33:02,970
but but they would get stamps they would

692
00:33:08,090 --> 00:33:06,000
get foreign stamps from all different

693
00:33:10,430 --> 00:33:08,100
countries and put them on the envelopes

694
00:33:12,620 --> 00:33:10,440
just as an extra and they would also put

695
00:33:15,230 --> 00:33:12,630
all kinds of quirky stickers and they

696
00:33:17,060 --> 00:33:15,240
would put medium stickers that you put

697
00:33:20,060 --> 00:33:17,070
in stakes and include that in the

698
00:33:21,980 --> 00:33:20,070
envelope so that's fun good includes

699
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:21,990
fortune-telling messages from fortune

700
00:33:27,980 --> 00:33:24,720
cookies and put that inside and all

701
00:33:29,950 --> 00:33:27,990
kinds of strange things about tricks

702
00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:29,960
they're often and had a strangely

703
00:33:35,390 --> 00:33:34,080
strangely meaningful objects like for

704
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:35,400
example they once sent me an

705
00:33:41,930 --> 00:33:38,370
advertisement for Japanese plates and

706
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:41,940
that that at the time I was I was very

707
00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:43,890
curious as to where I would get my first

708
00:33:49,210 --> 00:33:46,110
job after I got my PhD and it turned out

709
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:49,220
that my first job was in Japan I went to

710
00:33:57,530 --> 00:33:54,000
nice and that sometimes it was a

711
00:34:01,940 --> 00:33:57,540
predated right the the stamp on the

712
00:34:05,150 --> 00:34:01,950
letter was prior to but I'm still not

713
00:34:10,910 --> 00:34:05,160
clear what where was this paper I mean

714
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:10,920
you had it in your desk or okay okay it

715
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:13,050
started out inside the Benny lab like I

716
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:15,930
I bought a postcard I put a stamp on it

717
00:34:20,180 --> 00:34:17,610
I dressed it to myself and I'm what it

718
00:34:22,910 --> 00:34:20,190
is I had Edie Cox put it inside his mini

719
00:34:24,770 --> 00:34:22,920
lab and they had no problem with getting

720
00:34:26,660 --> 00:34:24,780
things in and out of the many lab so it

721
00:34:28,910 --> 00:34:26,670
disappeared from the mini lab and then

722
00:34:32,510 --> 00:34:28,920
it came to my house in Maryland oh so

723
00:34:34,220 --> 00:34:32,520
then so then I sent back a letter with

724
00:34:36,110 --> 00:34:34,230
enough self-addressed envelope and that

725
00:34:37,790 --> 00:34:36,120
saved then that came back to me and then

726
00:34:40,790 --> 00:34:37,800
other Surratt started writing letters

727
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:40,800
and they and I was considered to be the

728
00:34:45,860 --> 00:34:43,890
the organizer in the experiment so they

729
00:34:48,410 --> 00:34:45,870
would then send copies of their letters

730
00:34:50,510 --> 00:34:48,420
and that they would they typically would

731
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:50,520
send the letter to the wrong person

732
00:34:54,050 --> 00:34:52,650
whoever had written the letter wouldn't

733
00:34:55,790 --> 00:34:54,060
receive it it would go to somebody else

734
00:34:56,870 --> 00:34:55,800
and that caused the Surratt numbers to

735
00:35:00,890 --> 00:34:56,880
interact with each other

736
00:35:02,660 --> 00:35:00,900
continually that because the the the

737
00:35:04,850 --> 00:35:02,670
mechanism that helps the phenomenon

738
00:35:06,890 --> 00:35:04,860
occur is rapport so the more people

739
00:35:09,830 --> 00:35:06,900
communicate with each other and interact

740
00:35:11,390 --> 00:35:09,840
and the higher the level of rapport so

741
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:11,400
we were writing all these letters that

742
00:35:18,620 --> 00:35:13,770
it was at some stages

743
00:35:22,370 --> 00:35:18,630
I couldn't count it would be like maybe

744
00:35:24,140 --> 00:35:22,380
20 30 letters in one week on average is

745
00:35:26,930 --> 00:35:24,150
probably about a hundred letters a year

746
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:26,940
that were mailed out over over decades

747
00:35:33,810 --> 00:35:31,440
over many decades so it almost seems

748
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:33,820
like you have I mean obviously

749
00:35:38,670 --> 00:35:36,570
a lot of different forms of

750
00:35:40,770 --> 00:35:38,680
parapsychology but you seem to imply

751
00:35:43,610 --> 00:35:40,780
that there's a force behind all of them

752
00:35:46,590 --> 00:35:43,620
that just manifests itself differently

753
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:46,600
I'm sorry the audio is not very good

754
00:35:55,110 --> 00:35:51,250
it's some kind of lack of clarity I can

755
00:35:57,230 --> 00:35:55,120
hear both of you but this microphone

756
00:35:59,520 --> 00:35:57,240
sounds funny to me does it really yeah

757
00:36:02,130 --> 00:35:59,530
Kate I think something wrong with your

758
00:36:06,030 --> 00:36:02,140
microphone rice okay okay we have to

759
00:36:08,490 --> 00:36:06,040
wait for bill to fix that but in the

760
00:36:11,490 --> 00:36:08,500
interim could you answer just answer the

761
00:36:14,580 --> 00:36:11,500
question that is having to do with this

762
00:36:18,210 --> 00:36:14,590
that is that there were some letters

763
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:18,220
that had the postmark prior to when the

764
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:21,370
letter was written so that seems very

765
00:36:27,540 --> 00:36:25,570
anomalous to me yes they claimed the

766
00:36:31,470 --> 00:36:27,550
ability to move backward and forward

767
00:36:33,420 --> 00:36:31,480
through time yes and so of course the

768
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:33,430
alternate theory would be perhaps the

769
00:36:40,530 --> 00:36:37,810
postmaster had put a incorrect postmark

770
00:36:43,530 --> 00:36:40,540
on the letter hmm that somehow perhaps

771
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:43,540
the postmaster had been bribed and had

772
00:36:47,130 --> 00:36:45,760
been bribed in such a way that he or she

773
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:47,140
would be willing to put the incorrect

774
00:36:54,660 --> 00:36:51,010
postmark on the letter and so then as as

775
00:36:57,090 --> 00:36:54,670
the experiment continued then petcocks

776
00:37:01,200 --> 00:36:57,100
received something a mis-sent letter

777
00:37:03,300 --> 00:37:01,210
that the the the address label had

778
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:03,310
fallen off and the letter came back to

779
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:04,690
him and it contained it was a letter

780
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:06,370
which contained all the entity letters

781
00:37:13,140 --> 00:37:09,490
with a note inside to the postmaster

782
00:37:16,350 --> 00:37:13,150
asking him to to put a postmark on that

783
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:16,360
all these letters but not asking them to

784
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:20,560
to pre to put it at a previous date just

785
00:37:25,710 --> 00:37:23,650
put just post-market because that well

786
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:25,720
that only happened maybe two three four

787
00:37:29,970 --> 00:37:28,090
or five times but but all the time they

788
00:37:32,070 --> 00:37:29,980
were sending letter with they were

789
00:37:35,820 --> 00:37:32,080
sending letters with strange postmarks

790
00:37:39,390 --> 00:37:35,830
like Truth or Consequences Arizona or

791
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:39,400
Bethlehem Pennsylvania or no just quirky

792
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:42,610
postmark and so that the letter inside

793
00:37:46,890 --> 00:37:44,890
which was in the entity's handwriting by

794
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:46,900
the way asked

795
00:37:51,870 --> 00:37:49,450
that said that this is for my post smart

796
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:51,880
collector that is that they were a smart

797
00:37:56,670 --> 00:37:53,770
collector and so they're asking the

798
00:37:58,890 --> 00:37:56,680
postmaster to to postmark these letters

799
00:38:00,510 --> 00:37:58,900
and then mail them out and then so when

800
00:38:02,339 --> 00:38:00,520
the entities were asked about that they

801
00:38:03,990 --> 00:38:02,349
said well this is easier for us to do it

802
00:38:06,029 --> 00:38:04,000
this way it saves a lot of energy we

803
00:38:07,799 --> 00:38:06,039
don't have to use the psychic energy and

804
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:07,809
we can use the psychic energy for a

805
00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:10,450
better purposes like healing and maybe

806
00:38:16,620 --> 00:38:12,609
so this is just we have to do this is

807
00:38:21,299 --> 00:38:16,630
what we do you know well it's all in all

808
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:21,309
extraordinarily amazing at this point

809
00:38:28,380 --> 00:38:24,400
where you're looking back on this from

810
00:38:31,529 --> 00:38:28,390
our primarily about 30 years back into

811
00:38:33,450 --> 00:38:31,539
this correct yes you may have done stuff

812
00:38:37,769 --> 00:38:33,460
in between and in fact I know you have

813
00:38:40,319 --> 00:38:37,779
but what where do you come down with

814
00:38:43,410 --> 00:38:40,329
this I mean it I'm gonna just throw it

815
00:38:45,029 --> 00:38:43,420
out there like my thoughts first and and

816
00:38:45,870 --> 00:38:45,039
you can tell me where you come down on

817
00:38:48,630 --> 00:38:45,880
it

818
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:48,640
I am aware that there are all kinds of

819
00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:50,650
fraudulent things going on in the area

820
00:38:55,589 --> 00:38:53,680
of mediumship etc it's common there are

821
00:38:58,260 --> 00:38:55,599
two kinds of fraud people who are trying

822
00:39:00,660 --> 00:38:58,270
to be fraudulent and a lot of goodwill

823
00:39:02,579 --> 00:39:00,670
people who want to tell you everything's

824
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:02,589
going great with your grandmother in

825
00:39:06,839 --> 00:39:05,170
heaven and they're just you know they

826
00:39:09,690 --> 00:39:06,849
want the best for everybody and they're

827
00:39:12,210 --> 00:39:09,700
not trying to perpetrate a terrible

828
00:39:15,089 --> 00:39:12,220
fraud but if you we leave that aside

829
00:39:16,829 --> 00:39:15,099
some of the things that I have witnessed

830
00:39:20,010 --> 00:39:16,839
in my life and have experienced in my

831
00:39:22,289 --> 00:39:20,020
life leads me to to conclude through

832
00:39:25,230 --> 00:39:22,299
experience not through some blind belief

833
00:39:29,519 --> 00:39:25,240
but experience that some of these

834
00:39:31,410 --> 00:39:29,529
phenomena actually do happen and the

835
00:39:34,559 --> 00:39:31,420
place where I can't make a decision

836
00:39:36,900 --> 00:39:34,569
because it I I'm not a believer

837
00:39:40,529 --> 00:39:36,910
I always suspend disbelief and I'm not

838
00:39:42,779 --> 00:39:40,539
quote-unquote a believer is that there

839
00:39:46,650 --> 00:39:42,789
is something beyond the can of human

840
00:39:49,769 --> 00:39:46,660
beings that we live in a universe where

841
00:39:52,019 --> 00:39:49,779
we only see less than 1% of the

842
00:39:54,299 --> 00:39:52,029
electromagnetic spectrum and there's all

843
00:39:56,549 --> 00:39:54,309
kinds of stuff going on around us which

844
00:39:59,589 --> 00:39:56,559
probably does include some intelligent

845
00:40:02,170 --> 00:39:59,599
entities in some lower

846
00:40:04,540 --> 00:40:02,180
but I'm saying probably because I can't

847
00:40:06,579 --> 00:40:04,550
prove that but that's where my thinking

848
00:40:09,060 --> 00:40:06,589
goes now whether or not this is the

849
00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:09,070
ghost of your grandmother Hattie or

850
00:40:15,010 --> 00:40:13,040
whether or not it is something demonic I

851
00:40:18,060 --> 00:40:15,020
don't come down on that because gotta

852
00:40:23,020 --> 00:40:18,070
say I don't know so what about you Jim

853
00:40:25,210 --> 00:40:23,030
well I haven't received was began this

854
00:40:27,790 --> 00:40:25,220
as a sociological observer of a

855
00:40:29,980 --> 00:40:27,800
sociologist and so I was doing what we

856
00:40:31,690 --> 00:40:29,990
refer to as participant observation I

857
00:40:34,230 --> 00:40:31,700
was participating in the group and then

858
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:34,240
I was observing the group and my

859
00:40:39,910 --> 00:40:37,490
observation was that every single person

860
00:40:42,970 --> 00:40:39,920
who participated in the group was

861
00:40:46,210 --> 00:40:42,980
absolutely certain that the phenomena

862
00:40:49,890 --> 00:40:46,220
had a degree of authenticity and that

863
00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:49,900
was also my experience but all the

864
00:40:55,630 --> 00:40:52,250
skeptical people and all the parish

865
00:40:58,630 --> 00:40:55,640
psychologists were totally in unable to

866
00:41:01,300 --> 00:40:58,640
verify the phenomena they were that that

867
00:41:03,550 --> 00:41:01,310
not a single person who didn't was not

868
00:41:07,380 --> 00:41:03,560
participating in the group could gain

869
00:41:10,510 --> 00:41:07,390
even the slightest semblance of

870
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:10,520
understanding about the the degree of

871
00:41:18,250 --> 00:41:13,010
power of what was going on within that

872
00:41:20,740 --> 00:41:18,260
group and so in 1982 soon after I began

873
00:41:23,260 --> 00:41:20,750
studying strat I got the job in Japan

874
00:41:24,970 --> 00:41:23,270
and I lived in Asia for four years and I

875
00:41:28,990 --> 00:41:24,980
had a chance to interview many many

876
00:41:32,770 --> 00:41:29,000
shamanic practices and I got to a feel

877
00:41:34,839 --> 00:41:32,780
for what shamanism works it seemed to me

878
00:41:37,630 --> 00:41:34,849
I came to the realization that that

879
00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:37,640
Surat was very much like a shamanic

880
00:41:42,460 --> 00:41:40,250
group that the kind of thing which is

881
00:41:46,050 --> 00:41:42,470
going all going on all over the world

882
00:41:49,420 --> 00:41:46,060
and it was this is humankind's first

883
00:41:51,250 --> 00:41:49,430
religious form this is what humans did

884
00:41:53,050 --> 00:41:51,260
when they were hunting and gatherers

885
00:41:56,099 --> 00:41:53,060
hunters and gatherers all over the world

886
00:41:59,200 --> 00:41:56,109
was engaged in this kind of behavior

887
00:42:02,530 --> 00:41:59,210
gathering in groups doing rituals and

888
00:42:05,530 --> 00:42:02,540
having unusual experiment and unusual

889
00:42:08,020 --> 00:42:05,540
experiences and it takes all kinds of

890
00:42:11,109 --> 00:42:08,030
different forms but it has basic

891
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:11,119
physiological apparently physiological

892
00:42:14,990 --> 00:42:11,850
foundation

893
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:15,000
to it so I would I came to the

894
00:42:20,990 --> 00:42:17,490
realization that this type of phenomenon

895
00:42:23,330 --> 00:42:21,000
is beneficial for people it can have the

896
00:42:25,130 --> 00:42:23,340
perfect provides hypnotic suggestions

897
00:42:28,340 --> 00:42:25,140
which could be beneficial and it

898
00:42:31,220 --> 00:42:28,350
provides placebo effects and and that

899
00:42:34,130 --> 00:42:31,230
helps people survive so it would have us

900
00:42:36,380 --> 00:42:34,140
so it would provide humans with survival

901
00:42:39,260 --> 00:42:36,390
benefits and so that's why we see

902
00:42:40,130 --> 00:42:39,270
religion having that it has a genetic

903
00:42:42,050 --> 00:42:40,140
basis to it

904
00:42:44,510 --> 00:42:42,060
it's inherent that exists in every

905
00:42:47,020 --> 00:42:44,520
society on the faces there so it gives

906
00:42:49,790 --> 00:42:47,030
us an understanding of that some

907
00:42:56,630 --> 00:42:49,800
foundation to that process to that

908
00:43:00,350 --> 00:42:56,640
sociological phenomena so I understood

909
00:43:03,890 --> 00:43:00,360
everything that you said perfectly but

910
00:43:06,140 --> 00:43:03,900
what I didn't get was you've dis way you

911
00:43:08,620 --> 00:43:06,150
have come down on it is that I

912
00:43:12,700 --> 00:43:08,630
understand the the origin of religion

913
00:43:15,470 --> 00:43:12,710
and so forth but in the final outcome

914
00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:15,480
would it be correct to say that you

915
00:43:25,490 --> 00:43:19,910
perceive this as being accomplished by

916
00:43:31,220 --> 00:43:25,500
benevolent entities well I don't know

917
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:31,230
how to define the word entity I don't

918
00:43:36,740 --> 00:43:35,130
know what they are and I suppose they

919
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:36,750
didn't harm I don't feel like they

920
00:43:40,940 --> 00:43:38,880
harmed me physically they certainly

921
00:43:43,250 --> 00:43:40,950
certainly did a job on my reputation

922
00:43:46,910 --> 00:43:43,260
just damaged my career as a sociologist

923
00:43:49,250 --> 00:43:46,920
they certainly were tricksters I came to

924
00:43:51,650 --> 00:43:49,260
regard that my whole this endeavor is a

925
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:51,660
kind of religious or spiritual exercise

926
00:43:56,690 --> 00:43:54,960
and the message that they gave was that

927
00:44:00,530 --> 00:43:56,700
the whole purpose of life is to raise

928
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:00,540
your spiritual level and I certainly I

929
00:44:06,170 --> 00:44:03,210
certainly came to realize that by

930
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:06,180
thinking about your afterlife and by

931
00:44:10,910 --> 00:44:08,130
thinking about what it means to develop

932
00:44:12,740 --> 00:44:10,920
with rapport with other people and the

933
00:44:15,650 --> 00:44:12,750
what the real meaning of life is that

934
00:44:18,140 --> 00:44:15,660
that this this thing can be it could be

935
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:18,150
regarded as kind of a spiritual endeavor

936
00:44:23,030 --> 00:44:20,610
and that you can benefit from it you can

937
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:23,040
become a more well-rounded and happier

938
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:23,970
and more

939
00:44:29,180 --> 00:44:27,210
psychologically healthy person and so I

940
00:44:31,849 --> 00:44:29,190
think that's that's where the whole

941
00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:31,859
thing is going it certainly I don't it

942
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:33,599
certainly has not had a bunch of an

943
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:36,290
impact on the scientific community as

944
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:40,170
the early syrettes expected she says so

945
00:44:45,790 --> 00:44:42,810
so we have to deal with the reality the

946
00:44:48,109 --> 00:44:45,800
way that it is I think it's funny that

947
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:48,119
sociologists look down on you because

948
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:49,170
let me tell you if you go to a

949
00:44:55,609 --> 00:44:52,890
biochemist a conference or a triple AES

950
00:44:59,800 --> 00:44:55,619
conference sociology is not really

951
00:45:06,380 --> 00:45:03,410
so I mean it's sort of like the pot

952
00:45:09,380 --> 00:45:06,390
calling the kettle black that that's I

953
00:45:11,570 --> 00:45:09,390
think why I was so annoyed with the

954
00:45:14,839 --> 00:45:11,580
attitude toward ed Cox because there was

955
00:45:17,660 --> 00:45:14,849
a man who is really doing exemplary

956
00:45:21,020 --> 00:45:17,670
scientific research and that he was

957
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:21,030
treated that way it was ridiculous well

958
00:45:30,050 --> 00:45:27,210
having gone to a number of SSE meetings

959
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:30,060
Society for scientific exploration and

960
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:33,599
some other kind of parapsychology events

961
00:45:40,250 --> 00:45:37,530
I am often troubled because there is a

962
00:45:43,370 --> 00:45:40,260
big argument if certain phenomena are

963
00:45:45,890 --> 00:45:43,380
produced by super SCI or as it produced

964
00:45:48,430 --> 00:45:45,900
by the spirits of the dead and I'm

965
00:45:53,660 --> 00:45:48,440
sitting there thinking that they have

966
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:53,670
created a binary option there where

967
00:45:57,470 --> 00:45:55,890
where it doesn't have to be binary you

968
00:46:01,640 --> 00:45:57,480
know it could be something else it could

969
00:46:03,230 --> 00:46:01,650
be visitors from outer space or entities

970
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:03,240
or disincarnate

971
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:06,450
beings that we're never incarnate on the

972
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:09,570
earth but I just object always to the

973
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:12,170
binary conclusions of the

974
00:46:16,660 --> 00:46:14,010
parapsychologists it's either this or

975
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:16,670
that but it might not be this or that

976
00:46:23,630 --> 00:46:20,130
after all yes I think that's a pretty

977
00:46:25,339 --> 00:46:23,640
good way of it's a good perspective of

978
00:46:27,710 --> 00:46:25,349
recognizing

979
00:46:30,380 --> 00:46:27,720
also also that issue that they've

980
00:46:32,329 --> 00:46:30,390
developed it's not something that

981
00:46:35,660 --> 00:46:32,339
they're able to resolve scientifically

982
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:35,670
so as a I think as a sociologist I I'm

983
00:46:41,720 --> 00:46:37,650
trying to think along the lines of

984
00:46:45,010 --> 00:46:41,730
of trying to do research which can be

985
00:46:47,390 --> 00:46:45,020
resolved or can be tested and and

986
00:46:51,260 --> 00:46:47,400
Neihart I think diehard has an

987
00:46:53,599 --> 00:46:51,270
interesting position that well rapport

988
00:46:56,510 --> 00:46:53,609
certainly very important and it seems to

989
00:46:58,519 --> 00:46:56,520
be related with psychological health so

990
00:47:01,819 --> 00:46:58,529
which I think we should might think

991
00:47:04,460 --> 00:47:01,829
about psychological health and what

992
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:04,470
contributes to that what when groups get

993
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:06,720
together and they developed rapport

994
00:47:12,589 --> 00:47:08,970
that's very psychologically healthy for

995
00:47:16,069 --> 00:47:12,599
them and we can measure psychological

996
00:47:18,079 --> 00:47:16,079
health so that's that's at least that's

997
00:47:20,150 --> 00:47:18,089
a variable that makes sense for looking

998
00:47:22,309 --> 00:47:20,160
at and we can think about spiritual

999
00:47:24,829 --> 00:47:22,319
healing that's something that also can

1000
00:47:27,170 --> 00:47:24,839
be measured because some people some

1001
00:47:29,510 --> 00:47:27,180
people recover no people are faced with

1002
00:47:32,690 --> 00:47:29,520
it's very severe problems when when a

1003
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:32,700
person gets a diagnosis of cancer as you

1004
00:47:36,289 --> 00:47:34,650
know not everyone recovers a certain

1005
00:47:39,650 --> 00:47:36,299
percentage of people die and not some

1006
00:47:41,690 --> 00:47:39,660
certain percentage recover and certainly

1007
00:47:44,900 --> 00:47:41,700
you would like to be one who recovers

1008
00:47:48,470 --> 00:47:44,910
now and we wonder what what helps that

1009
00:47:52,279 --> 00:47:48,480
what what what facilitates that and I

1010
00:47:55,609 --> 00:47:52,289
think this spirituality does contribute

1011
00:48:00,200 --> 00:47:55,619
to that can it can severe it can have it

1012
00:48:03,470 --> 00:48:00,210
be a very useful factor and Neihardt use

1013
00:48:06,829 --> 00:48:03,480
the term pragmatic mysticism it's nice

1014
00:48:09,799 --> 00:48:06,839
to be a mystical person but it would be

1015
00:48:12,319 --> 00:48:09,809
nice to derive some kind of benefit from

1016
00:48:15,829 --> 00:48:12,329
it so we want to keep your feet on the

1017
00:48:18,769 --> 00:48:15,839
ground yeah well that's one of the

1018
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:18,779
problems with UF ology too I mean this

1019
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:21,210
stuff cannot be canned labeled and sold

1020
00:48:29,569 --> 00:48:23,970
so not a lot of money coming in from

1021
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:29,579
research I whole thing like you almost

1022
00:48:34,940 --> 00:48:32,490
seem to imply that all these phenomena

1023
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:34,950
are just emergent qualities of a group

1024
00:48:43,269 --> 00:48:37,410
of humans like a psychological energy

1025
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:43,279
that presents itself as consciousness no

1026
00:48:48,559 --> 00:48:46,770
yes yes the quality of consciousness and

1027
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:48,569
then there are certain things that we

1028
00:48:51,530 --> 00:48:50,730
can count pretty clearly like for

1029
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:51,540
example there

1030
00:48:55,460 --> 00:48:53,370
experiences that people have all over

1031
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:55,470
the world apparitions paranormal dreams

1032
00:49:00,320 --> 00:48:57,690
and waking extrasensory perception

1033
00:49:01,970 --> 00:49:00,330
psychokinesis out-of-body experience

1034
00:49:05,630 --> 00:49:01,980
near-death experience

1035
00:49:08,870 --> 00:49:05,640
synchronicity spiritual healing ufos and

1036
00:49:12,380 --> 00:49:08,880
perhaps these large footed animals you

1037
00:49:14,900 --> 00:49:12,390
know are unexplained animals people

1038
00:49:17,170 --> 00:49:14,910
people there's a the person who has one

1039
00:49:19,670 --> 00:49:17,180
of these experiences has a far higher

1040
00:49:22,370 --> 00:49:19,680
probability of having another experience

1041
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:22,380
and at these and that propensity is

1042
00:49:28,690 --> 00:49:24,690
associated with disassociation and

1043
00:49:31,070 --> 00:49:28,700
absorption so which which has which is

1044
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:31,080
psychologically healthy it can it can

1045
00:49:37,790 --> 00:49:34,770
provide benefits to people so so there

1046
00:49:41,420 --> 00:49:37,800
seems to be a kind of a cycle going on

1047
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:41,430
and and these that that those factors

1048
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:44,850
absorption and dissociation seem to be

1049
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:47,250
triggered by childhood trauma

1050
00:49:51,230 --> 00:49:49,170
a person who's that exposed to high

1051
00:49:54,910 --> 00:49:51,240
levels of childhood stress and childhood

1052
00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:54,920
trauma then has a higher level of of

1053
00:50:01,400 --> 00:49:57,810
propensity for the paranormal experience

1054
00:50:04,940 --> 00:50:01,410
and and that those experiences are kind

1055
00:50:07,220 --> 00:50:04,950
of a seed or a kernel which when when

1056
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:07,230
the person comes to terms with it and

1057
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:10,650
and integrates it into their life it can

1058
00:50:17,510 --> 00:50:13,410
result in in a belief system which is

1059
00:50:20,830 --> 00:50:17,520
very very beneficial and it could also

1060
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:20,840
work the other way too i some people

1061
00:50:27,710 --> 00:50:24,930
sort of create a evil type side to

1062
00:50:31,430 --> 00:50:27,720
themselves and believe in it you know

1063
00:50:33,130 --> 00:50:31,440
like sauna salmon so i guess in some

1064
00:50:36,050 --> 00:50:33,140
ways it's not always good just

1065
00:50:38,090 --> 00:50:36,060
self-fulfilling prophecy i suspect hmm

1066
00:50:40,430 --> 00:50:38,100
if you think something's gonna happen

1067
00:50:42,860 --> 00:50:40,440
it's more likely to happen and going

1068
00:50:45,650 --> 00:50:42,870
back to that the cancer situation if you

1069
00:50:48,350 --> 00:50:45,660
believe you can heal you're more likely

1070
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:48,360
to heal but if with so many people i

1071
00:50:53,090 --> 00:50:50,370
think today they go to a doctor and the

1072
00:50:55,820 --> 00:50:53,100
doctor says you have cancer and it's

1073
00:50:59,300 --> 00:50:55,830
cancer of the toe and the life

1074
00:51:01,340 --> 00:50:59,310
expectancy is two weeks if you believe

1075
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:01,350
in that if you buy into the fact that

1076
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:02,850
you got a tumor on your toe and you're

1077
00:51:06,980 --> 00:51:04,530
going to die in two weeks well

1078
00:51:09,530 --> 00:51:06,990
it's more likely to happen that's that

1079
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:09,540
seems to be the case that there that the

1080
00:51:16,490 --> 00:51:12,690
oncologists are sometimes our unwitting

1081
00:51:18,230 --> 00:51:16,500
witch doctors most definitely and some

1082
00:51:21,140 --> 00:51:18,240
of them are very good at it and others

1083
00:51:22,820 --> 00:51:21,150
not so good it's a strange situation now

1084
00:51:26,110 --> 00:51:22,830
here's something that I found I've been

1085
00:51:29,060 --> 00:51:26,120
during my academic career I gathered

1086
00:51:31,550 --> 00:51:29,070
spontaneous experiences I would ask and

1087
00:51:33,740 --> 00:51:31,560
have my students ask if you have had an

1088
00:51:36,290 --> 00:51:33,750
unusual experience would you describe it

1089
00:51:38,810 --> 00:51:36,300
so we collected a large number of these

1090
00:51:41,570 --> 00:51:38,820
stories and and the spiritual healing

1091
00:51:44,090 --> 00:51:41,580
stories were the one type of story which

1092
00:51:47,330 --> 00:51:44,100
elicited positive emotions more than any

1093
00:51:51,790 --> 00:51:47,340
other kind of experience and I found

1094
00:51:54,830 --> 00:51:51,800
that there are two basic kinds of

1095
00:51:59,960 --> 00:51:54,840
categories of spiritual healing and one

1096
00:52:03,860 --> 00:51:59,970
category seemed to revolve around burns

1097
00:52:06,740 --> 00:52:03,870
and skin disease and warts and things

1098
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:06,750
like that and those types of disorders

1099
00:52:12,410 --> 00:52:09,450
would respond very well to a folk healer

1100
00:52:16,250 --> 00:52:12,420
folk practitioner and another kind of

1101
00:52:18,860 --> 00:52:16,260
disorder bike would be cancer and some

1102
00:52:21,980 --> 00:52:18,870
kind of an cure we'll illness and those

1103
00:52:26,270 --> 00:52:21,990
kinds of disorders often responded to a

1104
00:52:29,540 --> 00:52:26,280
group prayer and a church activity and

1105
00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:29,550
that type of thing so I don't I'm not

1106
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:31,200
quite sure what to make of it but it's

1107
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:32,370
interesting to think about

1108
00:52:36,890 --> 00:52:34,890
you better believe if I were had cancer

1109
00:52:39,950 --> 00:52:36,900
I'm gonna have asked my church to pray

1110
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:39,960
now Handa and if you have some emergency

1111
00:52:46,100 --> 00:52:43,410
situation you might try self hypnosis or

1112
00:52:49,190 --> 00:52:46,110
hypnosis to relieve the pain and to

1113
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:49,200
reduce the inflammation and you know

1114
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:53,010
prevent a blood loss which in this that

1115
00:52:59,470 --> 00:52:56,450
kind of modality can be very valuable

1116
00:53:03,800 --> 00:52:59,480
well that is for sure

1117
00:53:05,780 --> 00:53:03,810
moving up to the present time Jim

1118
00:53:08,750 --> 00:53:05,790
could you tell us a little bit about

1119
00:53:10,340 --> 00:53:08,760
maybe what you might be proposing for

1120
00:53:13,100 --> 00:53:10,350
yourself for the present and the future

1121
00:53:15,890 --> 00:53:13,110
what you've been working on if anything

1122
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:15,900
or are you writing are you experimenting

1123
00:53:22,539 --> 00:53:17,690
what's up today for you

1124
00:53:24,940 --> 00:53:22,549
well I'm I am working very intensely on

1125
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:24,950
a project right now that involves the

1126
00:53:30,779 --> 00:53:28,010
Surat notes that dr. John Thomas

1127
00:53:36,789 --> 00:53:30,789
Richards kept during his life he died in

1128
00:53:39,010 --> 00:53:36,799
2015 and in 2017 I went out to Missouri

1129
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:39,020
and I collected all the available notes

1130
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:40,880
that I could find in the house as his

1131
00:53:46,329 --> 00:53:42,650
widow has pretty much left everything

1132
00:53:48,250 --> 00:53:46,339
just sitting around in his office and so

1133
00:53:52,150 --> 00:53:48,260
all these notes are available there's

1134
00:53:54,250 --> 00:53:52,160
notes from over 700 experiments probably

1135
00:53:56,380 --> 00:53:54,260
over a thousand but I've categorized

1136
00:53:58,839 --> 00:53:56,390
them and put them on my computer here

1137
00:54:01,920 --> 00:53:58,849
and I'm doing a statistical analysis

1138
00:54:05,170 --> 00:54:01,930
because I'm curious I have I have two

1139
00:54:08,470 --> 00:54:05,180
basic actually three basic hypotheses

1140
00:54:11,559 --> 00:54:08,480
that I'm testing statistically because

1141
00:54:13,359 --> 00:54:11,569
the notes described all the people who

1142
00:54:16,180 --> 00:54:13,369
have participated in every single group

1143
00:54:19,180 --> 00:54:16,190
meeting they described the place where

1144
00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:19,190
the meeting occurred tells the number of

1145
00:54:24,849 --> 00:54:22,250
people present it tells the degree that

1146
00:54:27,190 --> 00:54:24,859
the the outcome experimental outcome

1147
00:54:29,559 --> 00:54:27,200
whether the table levitated whether it

1148
00:54:31,329 --> 00:54:29,569
levitated after every state remained

1149
00:54:34,450 --> 00:54:31,339
levitating after they remove their hands

1150
00:54:37,089 --> 00:54:34,460
whether it fell it describes whether

1151
00:54:38,980 --> 00:54:37,099
there's a photograph taken and what the

1152
00:54:42,250 --> 00:54:38,990
effect of the photograph was on the

1153
00:54:44,799 --> 00:54:42,260
levitating object and it gives all the

1154
00:54:47,829 --> 00:54:44,809
trance messages that occurred then for

1155
00:54:50,289 --> 00:54:47,839
the spirits provided so that my theory

1156
00:54:53,049 --> 00:54:50,299
is if the spatula or theory is correct

1157
00:54:56,740 --> 00:54:53,059
that a large crowd of people should

1158
00:54:59,200 --> 00:54:56,750
reduce the probability of levitation

1159
00:55:02,500 --> 00:54:59,210
success as compared to a small

1160
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:02,510
probability and and so that that's would

1161
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:04,130
be one hypothesis that we can test with

1162
00:55:08,559 --> 00:55:06,170
this type of data and then another

1163
00:55:11,380 --> 00:55:08,569
theory The Bachelor were offered offers

1164
00:55:14,140 --> 00:55:11,390
to us is that it's possible for people

1165
00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:14,150
to overcome their fear or sigh so the

1166
00:55:17,620 --> 00:55:15,710
theory is is that if a person

1167
00:55:19,690 --> 00:55:17,630
participates on a large number of

1168
00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:19,700
experiments they should have a higher

1169
00:55:25,059 --> 00:55:22,730
probability of the success than a person

1170
00:55:28,690 --> 00:55:25,069
who only participates in one experiment

1171
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:28,700
or two or three or like that so we can

1172
00:55:32,060 --> 00:55:30,330
test those hypotheses with the

1173
00:55:36,710 --> 00:55:32,070
stata that's what I'm working on right

1174
00:55:39,230 --> 00:55:36,720
now and actually the the the hypotheses

1175
00:55:42,170 --> 00:55:39,240
have been supported by the data but

1176
00:55:44,810 --> 00:55:42,180
there is a the best powerful propensity

1177
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:44,820
is for the phenomena to decline over

1178
00:55:50,510 --> 00:55:47,610
time it seems to it seems to have

1179
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:50,520
diminished during each and is there's a

1180
00:55:54,980 --> 00:55:52,170
tendency for it to diminish during each

1181
00:55:58,070 --> 00:55:54,990
individual's interaction within the

1182
00:56:00,290 --> 00:55:58,080
group and so I think the tricksters the

1183
00:56:03,650 --> 00:56:00,300
tricksters probably more powerful than

1184
00:56:08,690 --> 00:56:03,660
then these other hypotheses that I've

1185
00:56:10,930 --> 00:56:08,700
offered Wow so anything happened that

1186
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:10,940
sounds very interesting and useful

1187
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:14,010
scientifically is there anything that

1188
00:56:22,460 --> 00:56:18,240
you're doing now with actual

1189
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:22,470
participation in purported sight a

1190
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:25,650
psychic side phenomena

1191
00:56:33,650 --> 00:56:29,370
I meditate that's all that's the main

1192
00:56:36,740 --> 00:56:33,660
thing and I I am I am I'm thinking that

1193
00:56:40,580 --> 00:56:36,750
the actual siphon Amon eyes just a

1194
00:56:43,700 --> 00:56:40,590
stepping stone so it's like a sign on on

1195
00:56:46,130 --> 00:56:43,710
on the spiritual pathway it's not it's

1196
00:56:49,190 --> 00:56:46,140
not the main things not the real event

1197
00:56:51,170 --> 00:56:49,200
that the interaction of the people the

1198
00:56:54,950 --> 00:56:51,180
rapport between people is the most

1199
00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:54,960
important thing and the the loss the

1200
00:57:00,230 --> 00:56:57,570
emptying of yourself the forgetting of

1201
00:57:02,660 --> 00:57:00,240
yourself and becoming a selfless person

1202
00:57:06,620 --> 00:57:02,670
I think is that it's the way to go is

1203
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:06,630
the direction simplicity patience and

1204
00:57:14,180 --> 00:57:10,770
compassion I think it's it's where this

1205
00:57:16,970 --> 00:57:14,190
is leading well those are very nice

1206
00:57:20,660 --> 00:57:16,980
things well but yet you keep talking

1207
00:57:23,690 --> 00:57:20,670
about fear what why do you think people

1208
00:57:25,970 --> 00:57:23,700
your opinion why do you think people

1209
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:25,980
fear sigh but to be honest when I

1210
00:57:32,290 --> 00:57:28,650
applied for college I applied to Duke

1211
00:57:35,180 --> 00:57:32,300
because they had a parasite ecology

1212
00:57:36,950 --> 00:57:35,190
undergraduate study and I was accepted

1213
00:57:40,580 --> 00:57:36,960
and then I turned it down because I was

1214
00:57:42,890 --> 00:57:40,590
afraid to be honest I chickened out but

1215
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:42,900
what what do you think what is that fear

1216
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:43,530
I mean

1217
00:57:50,930 --> 00:57:46,890
I really had no bad experiences nothing

1218
00:57:52,430 --> 00:57:50,940
to be afraid of okay so Kate I'm unable

1219
00:57:54,410 --> 00:57:52,440
to hear it real clearly but I heard you

1220
00:57:57,950 --> 00:57:54,420
asked the question why do people fear

1221
00:58:00,560 --> 00:57:57,960
sigh is that pretty much yes yeah so so

1222
00:58:02,900 --> 00:58:00,570
here's a here's a theory I'm offering

1223
00:58:05,780 --> 00:58:02,910
okay if there is this thing called

1224
00:58:08,330 --> 00:58:05,790
collective consciousness it's a very

1225
00:58:09,860 --> 00:58:08,340
it's a very important for all of us the

1226
00:58:12,230 --> 00:58:09,870
collective consciousness is very

1227
00:58:15,710 --> 00:58:12,240
important for us to communicate and for

1228
00:58:18,230 --> 00:58:15,720
living our lives and and it creates this

1229
00:58:20,630 --> 00:58:18,240
reality that we're living in and it's

1230
00:58:24,140 --> 00:58:20,640
interesting that the name of your your

1231
00:58:27,590 --> 00:58:24,150
program is shattered reality because if

1232
00:58:30,650 --> 00:58:27,600
when people who are say levitating

1233
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:30,660
tables or doing some type of strange

1234
00:58:35,570 --> 00:58:33,330
magic or whatever that it's that's

1235
00:58:37,100 --> 00:58:35,580
threatening to the consensual reality

1236
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:37,110
that's damaging to the consensual

1237
00:58:44,750 --> 00:58:39,810
realities it's uh it upsets the apple

1238
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:44,760
cart and who can say it allows both the

1239
00:58:50,270 --> 00:58:46,730
very positive and the very negative

1240
00:58:52,700 --> 00:58:50,280
phenomena and the hierarchy and the

1241
00:58:54,620 --> 00:58:52,710
normal people the powerful people in our

1242
00:58:58,340 --> 00:58:54,630
consensual reality have no control over

1243
00:59:00,920 --> 00:58:58,350
that that that that could damage and it

1244
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:00,930
could damage our 401ks no I mean I'm

1245
00:59:06,860 --> 00:59:05,250
being facetious here but if you start

1246
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:06,870
knowing what's going to happen next in

1247
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:09,330
the stock market and only ten people

1248
00:59:13,490 --> 00:59:12,090
know that then the stock market is sort

1249
00:59:16,310 --> 00:59:13,500
of screwed for the rest of the people

1250
00:59:18,890 --> 00:59:16,320
yes some people went and other people

1251
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:18,900
lose and so so there is a threat and

1252
00:59:24,290 --> 00:59:20,730
then but the second thing which I've

1253
00:59:26,150 --> 00:59:24,300
come to to believe or think is a valid

1254
00:59:30,110 --> 00:59:26,160
way of thinking about things is that

1255
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:30,120
these the pathway towards pick the

1256
00:59:34,910 --> 00:59:32,250
paranormal involves a disruption of

1257
00:59:36,830 --> 00:59:34,920
normal consciousness like when I sit at

1258
00:59:38,510 --> 00:59:36,840
meditate I'm disrupting my normal

1259
00:59:41,180 --> 00:59:38,520
consciousness and then that that

1260
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:41,190
probably facilitates paranormal

1261
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:43,530
experience but there's many other ways

1262
00:59:47,810 --> 00:59:45,450
of disrupting normal consciousness and

1263
00:59:50,300 --> 00:59:47,820
psychosis is the most common way that

1264
00:59:53,060 --> 00:59:50,310
normal consciousness is disrupted a

1265
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:53,070
person who is psychotic doesn't have

1266
00:59:57,410 --> 00:59:55,530
control over whether it he or she can

1267
00:59:59,930 --> 00:59:57,420
turn it on or off like I can when

1268
01:00:02,660 --> 00:59:59,940
meditating but yet normal consciousness

1269
01:00:05,980 --> 01:00:02,670
of that person is very disrupted and is

1270
01:00:09,109 --> 01:00:05,990
similar to a mystical person

1271
01:00:10,370 --> 01:00:09,119
consciousness they've entered into some

1272
01:00:13,130 --> 01:00:10,380
kind of altered state of consciousness

1273
01:00:16,750 --> 01:00:13,140
and it's a disruption of the normal

1274
01:00:19,370 --> 01:00:16,760
consciousness so so this form of

1275
01:00:22,670 --> 01:00:19,380
interest in the paranormal it's a it's a

1276
01:00:24,650 --> 01:00:22,680
cousin of psychosis which is there's a

1277
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:24,660
there's a real stigma connected to

1278
01:00:29,900 --> 01:00:26,970
psychosis that's that's what the real

1279
01:00:33,620 --> 01:00:29,910
problem is because you're you're dealing

1280
01:00:36,530 --> 01:00:33,630
with the actual craziness it's fun to to

1281
01:00:38,930 --> 01:00:36,540
be slightly crazy but it's not so fun to

1282
01:00:42,079 --> 01:00:38,940
be really crazy and that's where the

1283
01:00:45,260 --> 01:00:42,089
compassion is needed to help people find

1284
01:00:47,450 --> 01:00:45,270
their way and to to make the changes

1285
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:47,460
that are required to lead a more happy

1286
01:00:51,500 --> 01:00:49,890
and productive life and so I think we

1287
01:00:54,140 --> 01:00:51,510
might just mention people who are

1288
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:54,150
listening to this it'd be good to look

1289
01:00:57,859 --> 01:00:56,130
inside yourself and see what what could

1290
01:01:00,140 --> 01:00:57,869
you do to lead a more happy and

1291
01:01:03,530 --> 01:01:00,150
productive life but what steps should

1292
01:01:05,710 --> 01:01:03,540
you take and the paranormal phenomena is

1293
01:01:09,559 --> 01:01:05,720
nice but it's really just a guide post

1294
01:01:12,650 --> 01:01:09,569
it's just a way marker on this pathway

1295
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:12,660
towards towards achieving the the

1296
01:01:18,319 --> 01:01:14,970
rapport and the feeling of connectedness

1297
01:01:20,660 --> 01:01:18,329
that that involves some kind of a deeper

1298
01:01:23,780 --> 01:01:20,670
reality than the mundane reality that

1299
01:01:25,690 --> 01:01:23,790
we're living in that was really very

1300
01:01:29,900 --> 01:01:25,700
nicely put yes it certainly was

1301
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:29,910
inspiring but I want to just bring one

1302
01:01:37,250 --> 01:01:33,450
thought into that and is that is it true

1303
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:37,260
as I have read and you have studied some

1304
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:40,890
shamanistic cultures that in some of the

1305
01:01:48,289 --> 01:01:44,640
indigenous shamanistic cultures the

1306
01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:48,299
people who are the shaman are often

1307
01:01:55,309 --> 01:01:50,160
would often be considered to be

1308
01:01:58,099 --> 01:01:55,319
psychotic in the Western world well I've

1309
01:02:00,530 --> 01:01:58,109
talked to psychiatrists in like in

1310
01:02:03,799 --> 01:02:00,540
Okinawa and they said well there are

1311
01:02:08,780 --> 01:02:03,809
some people who they if the psychosis

1312
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:08,790
fits the folklore of shamanism then it

1313
01:02:13,460 --> 01:02:10,530
can be cured

1314
01:02:15,770 --> 01:02:13,470
so so yes they might be considered to be

1315
01:02:18,500 --> 01:02:15,780
psychotic but they but you know

1316
01:02:21,410 --> 01:02:18,510
psychosis is really just a continuum and

1317
01:02:23,030 --> 01:02:21,420
the people who end up in a psychiatric

1318
01:02:25,010 --> 01:02:23,040
hospital they're the people who have

1319
01:02:26,870 --> 01:02:25,020
attempted suicide or they're unable to

1320
01:02:28,970 --> 01:02:26,880
take care of themselves or their danger

1321
01:02:31,970 --> 01:02:28,980
to themselves or to other people there's

1322
01:02:33,830 --> 01:02:31,980
many people who we've had many unusual

1323
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:33,840
experiences but they're not actually

1324
01:02:40,340 --> 01:02:38,730
psychotic it's just that they are there

1325
01:02:43,250 --> 01:02:40,350
they're there people who are being who

1326
01:02:46,580 --> 01:02:43,260
have been called to this pathway you

1327
01:02:48,410 --> 01:02:46,590
know and and if they put some effort

1328
01:02:51,410 --> 01:02:48,420
into it they can develop their

1329
01:02:53,270 --> 01:02:51,420
psychological health and they can they

1330
01:02:56,420 --> 01:02:53,280
can be a beneficial to others who are

1331
01:02:58,700 --> 01:02:56,430
struggling because childhood trauma and

1332
01:03:01,310 --> 01:02:58,710
childhood difficulty that for many

1333
01:03:03,500 --> 01:03:01,320
people that's it sticks with you you

1334
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:03,510
know and it it's not an easy thing to

1335
01:03:08,930 --> 01:03:07,530
overcome and adult trauma say in my

1336
01:03:11,330 --> 01:03:08,940
experiences in Vietnam for example

1337
01:03:12,950 --> 01:03:11,340
that's not easy it's not easy to get

1338
01:03:15,650 --> 01:03:12,960
over that and it is something that

1339
01:03:18,620 --> 01:03:15,660
you're going to to be carrying with you

1340
01:03:21,590 --> 01:03:18,630
but with a little bit of effort and a

1341
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:21,600
little bit of focusing of the mind you

1342
01:03:26,930 --> 01:03:24,810
can become much more psychologically

1343
01:03:29,750 --> 01:03:26,940
healthy a lot of times it's just common

1344
01:03:32,990 --> 01:03:29,760
sense if you're drinking too much give

1345
01:03:35,180 --> 01:03:33,000
it up you know if you're angry if you're

1346
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:35,190
angry all the time you're gonna have to

1347
01:03:38,900 --> 01:03:37,050
figure out how to get it up if you if

1348
01:03:41,450 --> 01:03:38,910
you can't get along with people you'll

1349
01:03:44,660 --> 01:03:41,460
have to figure out how to do that know

1350
01:03:46,610 --> 01:03:44,670
so so a lot of times it's easy for

1351
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:46,620
outsiders to tell you what you do but it

1352
01:03:52,670 --> 01:03:48,570
you need to be able to tell yourself

1353
01:03:55,220 --> 01:03:52,680
what to do well I think that we have

1354
01:03:59,050 --> 01:03:55,230
come through the full hour here and

1355
01:04:02,420 --> 01:03:59,060
should probably be bidding you adieu

1356
01:04:05,210 --> 01:04:02,430
however I cannot begin to thank you but

1357
01:04:07,580 --> 01:04:05,220
I will thank you very much I think that

1358
01:04:10,970 --> 01:04:07,590
you should mention the name of your book

1359
01:04:13,340 --> 01:04:10,980
and on the publishing company just so

1360
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:13,350
people can go out and buy the book and

1361
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:17,010
you could become more successful as we

1362
01:04:21,770 --> 01:04:20,130
all want to be okay well the title of

1363
01:04:23,390 --> 01:04:21,780
the book is the entity letters of

1364
01:04:24,349 --> 01:04:23,400
sociologists on the trail of a

1365
01:04:26,359 --> 01:04:24,359
supernatural

1366
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:26,369
Street the most common way people get

1367
01:04:31,309 --> 01:04:29,130
the book is they go onto Amazon and they

1368
01:04:34,039 --> 01:04:31,319
type in the entity letters and James

1369
01:04:37,630 --> 01:04:34,049
McLennan or it'll come right up

1370
01:04:41,059 --> 01:04:37,640
the publishers anomalous anomalous books

1371
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:41,069
an anomalous books calm but I think

1372
01:04:46,279 --> 01:04:43,410
Amazon probably the easiest way to get

1373
01:04:48,620 --> 01:04:46,289
it okay thank you so very much for

1374
01:04:50,390 --> 01:04:48,630
having me well thank you so much I know

1375
01:04:52,519 --> 01:04:50,400
you probably can't hear me but thank you

1376
01:04:52,759 --> 01:04:52,529
it's been a great discussion yes thank

1377
01:04:55,789 --> 01:04:52,769
you

1378
01:04:58,370 --> 01:04:55,799
F on behalf of ourselves here

1379
01:05:01,029 --> 01:04:58,380
Kate bill and Ferruccio we want to thank

1380
01:05:04,069 --> 01:05:01,039
you for being on the show and we hope to

1381
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:04,079
invite you back at some time perhaps

1382
01:05:11,809 --> 01:05:07,170
when you finish with your next your next

1383
01:05:16,039 --> 01:05:11,819
book which is going to correlate all of

1384
01:05:18,079 --> 01:05:16,049
the letters and the experiences of the

1385
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:18,089
gentlemen of all the sudden wise my

1386
01:05:23,660 --> 01:05:22,170
brain Richards Richards yes tell us

1387
01:05:25,670 --> 01:05:23,670
about that it talks about the letters

1388
01:05:27,589 --> 01:05:25,680
actually I have another book about the

1389
01:05:29,839 --> 01:05:27,599
Vietnam War where I'm going to I compare

1390
01:05:33,890 --> 01:05:29,849
my stories with an Iranian guy who's a

1391
01:05:35,479 --> 01:05:33,900
veteran of an Iraq Iran Iraq war and but

1392
01:05:37,670 --> 01:05:35,489
there's a little bit of paranormal

1393
01:05:40,549 --> 01:05:37,680
phenomena in there so don't worry it's

1394
01:05:43,519 --> 01:05:40,559
still there we'll see how that one comes

1395
01:05:45,019 --> 01:05:43,529
out okay okay once again thanks so much

1396
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:45,029
and bye for now

1397
01:05:51,890 --> 01:05:48,450
take care for now thank you so much okay

1398
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:51,900
wasn't that interesting yeah it was I'll

1399
01:05:56,299 --> 01:05:53,970
tell you talk about EVP have you heard a

1400
01:05:58,519 --> 01:05:56,309
lot of crackles and stuff yes I did open

1401
01:06:01,549 --> 01:05:58,529
a lot of crackles and stuff mom and I

1402
01:06:03,609 --> 01:06:01,559
don't know whether dr. McLennan was

1403
01:06:15,499 --> 01:06:03,619
moving papers on his desk

1404
01:06:16,220 --> 01:06:15,509
oh ma B he was moving papers owner of a

1405
01:06:21,589 --> 01:06:16,230
gun okay

1406
01:06:25,789 --> 01:06:21,599
but in any case in any case we just

1407
01:06:28,849 --> 01:06:25,799
finished episode 74 I want to invite our

1408
01:06:31,970 --> 01:06:28,859
listeners to comment on any of our

1409
01:06:34,309 --> 01:06:31,980
platforms and I will remind you that we

1410
01:06:36,890 --> 01:06:34,319
can be found at shattered reality

1411
01:06:41,050 --> 01:06:36,900
podcast wordpress.com

1412
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:41,060
shattered reality podcast.com on

1413
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:45,930
Facebook and also on YouTube where we

1414
01:06:51,530 --> 01:06:48,450
are amassing a number of followers so

1415
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:51,540
you can comment on any of those sites

1416
01:06:59,780 --> 01:06:55,890
I would also invite you listeners if you

1417
01:07:01,970 --> 01:06:59,790
have had a paranormal experience that

1418
01:07:04,970 --> 01:07:01,980
you would like to share with us here at

1419
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:04,980
shattered reality that you would contact

1420
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:11,450
me and/or shared reality podcast and

1421
01:07:17,980 --> 01:07:15,210
tell us what it is that you experienced

1422
01:07:20,870 --> 01:07:17,990
and whether you would like to be on

1423
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:20,880
personally or you would like me or Kate

1424
01:07:28,790 --> 01:07:26,730
to read your experience email but I'd

1425
01:07:32,330 --> 01:07:28,800
like to make a point on that too is that

1426
01:07:34,130 --> 01:07:32,340
we have gazillion experiences every day

1427
01:07:36,740 --> 01:07:34,140
but when if something is strange how it

1428
01:07:39,830 --> 01:07:36,750
stays with you through the years you

1429
01:07:43,310 --> 01:07:39,840
don't forget it very vivid memory yes

1430
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:43,320
just even in regards to this gentleman

1431
01:07:48,020 --> 01:07:45,570
and the book that started the whole

1432
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:48,030
thing black kettle's speaks for whatever

1433
01:07:51,110 --> 01:07:49,170
reason yes

1434
01:07:53,150 --> 01:07:51,120
stayed in my mind that it appeared

1435
01:07:55,130 --> 01:07:53,160
mysteriously on my bookshelf you know I

1436
01:07:56,540 --> 01:07:55,140
don't claim there's no way to prove and

1437
01:07:59,540 --> 01:07:56,550
I don't claim that this was paranormal

1438
01:08:02,540 --> 01:07:59,550
but the fact that it was odd odd not

1439
01:08:04,730 --> 01:08:02,550
once but twice it showed up it stayed

1440
01:08:07,130 --> 01:08:04,740
with me mm-hmm anything that's out of

1441
01:08:10,810 --> 01:08:07,140
the ordinary always does you just don't

1442
01:08:13,340 --> 01:08:10,820
forget it it's like huh do you have any

1443
01:08:15,260 --> 01:08:13,350
anything that you want to share with us

1444
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:15,270
now Kate no nope I'm good

1445
01:08:20,480 --> 01:08:17,010
oh one more thing to mention to

1446
01:08:24,410 --> 01:08:20,490
everybody is that our next podcast is

1447
01:08:29,170 --> 01:08:24,420
likely to be on or around September 11th

1448
01:08:32,420 --> 01:08:29,180
and in order to sort of commemorate that

1449
01:08:34,730 --> 01:08:32,430
experience which all of us here in the

1450
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:34,740
New York area certainly had some very

1451
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:38,130
strange experiences if we could get a

1452
01:08:45,110 --> 01:08:40,890
few listeners to write down their

1453
01:08:47,990 --> 01:08:45,120
experiences the odd experiences around

1454
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:48,000
9/11 that they would like to share with

1455
01:08:50,810 --> 01:08:49,890
us I know that I had some strange

1456
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:50,820
experience

1457
01:08:57,530 --> 01:08:54,090
prior to 9/11 and I know of some kids

1458
01:09:02,440 --> 01:08:57,540
who drew pictures of planes hitting the

1459
01:09:06,530 --> 01:09:02,450
buildings before 9/11 so if you have had

1460
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:06,540
some anomalous experience around 9/11

1461
01:09:10,270 --> 01:09:08,850
please write it down and send it to us

1462
01:09:22,490 --> 01:09:10,280
thank you